CHAS DE LACY:  AN OAK STORY
THE GREMLINS EPs and CHRIS ANDREWS SESSIONS

By Eddy Bonte ©. Based on the interview with Chas de Lacy conducted by Eddy Bonte at Martin Blackwell’s home in Wallington, England, on 25 July 2022.  

Peter Thorp, guitarist with The Roulettes from the onset in September 1961 till their break-up in late 1967, once told me he had given a number of his OAK acetate demos to Chas de Lacy, the original bass-player with The Gremlins, who had subsequently taped them. Presuming the tape contained recordings by The Roulettes or individual members, I tracked down Chas de Lacy who was only too happy to contribute facts, figures and a sharp recollection of happy times spent at the studio of R.G. Jones, who labelled his product as Oak Records.

Chas de Lacy:
‘This is what happened: Pete gave me some acetate demos and when I looked at them I realised that he didn't have any of the acetate recordings that I had (Gremlins, Lynn Dalby, Chris Andrews), so I taped these and gave the audiocassette to him for his interest - particularly because he was on some of them and had probably forgotten! That was some twenty-five years ago.
I gave his acetates back a few months before he died [2 Jan. 2021] and those on Oak were recordings of songs that Pete had written, which although I would have been on one or two, didn't really interest me because as recordings they were fairly basic’.

As it turned out, The Roulettes were nowhere to be heard on that audiocassette, but my disappointment quickly faded when Chas detailed its actual contents: taken from authentic Oak discs recorded at R.G. Jones’, it comprises twenty-four songs by The Gremlins, Chris Andrews backed by The Gremlins, actress Lynn Dalby, an unknown female singer, Gremlins vocalist Chris Jennings singing Chris Andrews, Chris aka Tim Andrews, Peter Thorp on drums and a future Spark single credited to Simon de Lacy – triggering trivia and stories on Val Doonican, a Chris Andrews composition that wasn’t withheld for the 1967 Eurovision Song Contest, a Geno Washington-styled soul singer of Indian descent, Sandie Shaw, Rogan’s Heroes and The Fleur de Lys.

Here's a detailed account as told to Eddy Bonte by Chas de Lacy.

(Eddy Bonte)

AUDIOCASSETTE SIDE B

SONGS 1 to 4: THE GREMLINS’ FIRST EP, 1965.
In 1965, The Gremlins did a session for an EP at R.G. Jones’. The line-up was Chris Jennings on vocals, Chris Protheroe on lead guitar, Graham McCubbin on drums and me on bass. The first number was ‘How Can You Tell’, written by Chris Andrews. We fancied it might be possible to release it as a single, but as it happens in the end, I think Chris’ manager heard the demo and wanted Sandie Shaw to record it (laughs). So that didn’t come to anything. The other three tunes were just filler tracks, something I think to use up the studio time: ‘Stubborn Kind of Fellow’, ‘You’ve Got to Hide Your Love Away’, and The Hollies song ‘We’re Through’. That was the first EP session by The Gremlins.

When listening to ‘How Can You Tell’, I remembered that you can just hear a piano on that one somewhere in the background. That was Chris Andrews, he came along to the session because it was his songs. This is after we got to know him on the occasion of a beat group contest in March ’65. I don’t think he was there for the rest of that EP session.

[NOTE 1An O
Sandie Shaw: ‘How Can You Tell’ c/w ‘If You Ever Need Me’, both by Andrews, was released in the UK as Pye 7N 15987 on 12 November 1965].
[NOTE 2
See side-story 3 ‘Meeting Chris Andrews and Peter Thorp’].

SONGS 5 to 8: THE GREMLINS’ SECOND EP, 1966.
By the time we did the second lot of four tracks in 1966, we had a change of lead guitar. Our original lead guitarist Chris Protheroe left to pursue other interests and we found a chap who’d played the part of The Artful Dodger in the stage production of ‘Oliver’. Incidentally, our new guitarist’s name was Chris Andrews as well. We nick-named him ‘Little Chris’, so we could differentiate between which Chris we were talking about (laughs). He would join The Fleur de Lys and later enjoy success as a singer-songwriter calling himself Tim Andrews. 

These four tracks make up our second EP session and start with ‘High Time Baby’, which was the B-side of The Spencer Davis Group’s hit single ‘Keep on Running’. We did our own take on it, and it was sung by Little Chris, as I’ll call him now. The next three tracks are ‘One More Chance’, ‘When You Need Someone to Love’, and ‘I Shouldn’t Cry’. Now, these three songs were co-written by Chris Jennings and Little Chris, so not Chris Andrews!.

[NOTE 1
See Side-Story 1: The Fleur de Lys].

[NOTE 2
The Spencer Davis Group: Keep on Running (J. Edwards) c/w High Time Baby (Winwood, Davis, Winwood), was released on Fontana, UK, cat.no. TF 632 / 267514 on 26 November 1965].

SONGS 9 & 10 LYNN DALBY
The next two tracks ‘I’ve Heard About Him’ and ‘Single Girl’ feature a girl singer, namely the actress Lynn Dalby who was to become Hazel in the tv-series ‘Budgie’. Actually, Peter Thorp was going out with Belinda Carroll, sister of actress Kate O’Mara (maiden name Carroll), and Kate shared a flat with Lynn Dalby. That’s how it sort of linked up. I don’t know whether Lynn fancied some singing or whether Peter might have said ‘Why don’t you have a try at singing?’, but we recorded two tracks with her.
‘I’ve heard about him’ is a Chris Andrews track, on which Peter played lead guitar and The Gremlins made up the rest of the backing. ‘Single Girl’ was actually a Peter, Paul & Mary song, and Peter (Thorp) played an acoustic on that, finger-packing. A nice song.

[NOTE
‘Single Girl’ appeared on the Peter, Paul & Mary album ‘In Concert,’ July 1964]

SONGS 11 to 14 PETER THORP / SIMON de LACY
Then we go on to a couple of Pete’s songs, ‘Baby Come Back to Me’, and ‘Goodbye Love’: the Oak demos of those songs, followed by the single release on Spark. It’s interesting to compare the two recordings as you’ll hear the difference in quality. I can’t remember what we all played on to be honest, but it was lots of Peter because they are his songs, and Chris Jennings on vocals. In early 1968, both songs were ultimately released as a single credited to Simon de Lacy. The demo sessions took place in November-December I think, at any rate only a few months before its release.

[NOTE 1
Simon de Lacy: ‘Baby Come Back to Me’ c/w ‘Goodbye Love’ was released on Spark, cat.no. SRL 001, UK, 23 Feb. 1968].   
[NOTE 2
Read the Simon de Lacy story here: https://www.eddybonte.be/just-good-music/pop/the-roulettes/peter-thorp-songwriter-02-simon-de-lacy/ ].

The sounds and noises you hear next on the cassette are irrelevant. I think that was probably because the tape had originally something else on it and was not wiped completely.

AUDIOCASSETTE SIDE A

Chas de Lacy: 
'So that leads us on to the other side of the cassette and these songs were recorded in 1966 with the new Gremlins line-up: Little Chris Andrews didn’t say with us for long and joined The Fleur de Lys who had released ‘Circles’. We advertised for a new guitarist and a chap who came along brought a friend of his who had a keyboard. Now, the guy who came to play guitar didn’t impress us too much, but his friend who played the keyboard was really good. He played ‘House of the Rising Sun’ Animals style and he did the keyboard part spot-on. And we thought ‘Oh, perhaps we ought to have a keyboard rather than another guitar’ (laughs). By the time we got to do the ‘Chris Andrews sessions’ we’ll talk about in a minute, the line-up was Chris Jennings on vocals, Graham McCubbin on drums, Mike Gelardi on keyboards and piano, and myself on bass. During that time, we also recruited Joe Kirtiker, a soul singer of Indian descent, and changed our name to The Zam Band, I guess inspired by Geno Washington’s Ram Jam Band'.

[NOTE
See Side-Story 2: The Zam Band].

Chas de Lacy:
'All the following tracks are Chris Andrews sessions and us helping with the backing. Those sessions were a lot of fun. It would often be late at night and Chris would come in with a crate of beer and some bottles of whisky (laughs). I was always amazed how Chris could churn out endless amounts of songs, writing stuff for Adam Faith, The Roulettes, Sandie Shaw, you know, like a song factory, he was brilliant (laughs). That was when he thought it would be an interesting idea to record some of his songs as he’d written them, rather than taking them to people on manuscript, or play them just on piano. I think he’d earned some money from songs with Adam and Sandie, so he was able to afford to do these demos in a better way (laughs). These sessions were 1966, coming to 1967.
For one or two Chris Andrews songs, I’ve written down what I thought the title might be from the words, but they are not necessarily what they might’ve become ultimately - but I think they’re fairly obvious. All were written by Chris'.

SONGS 1 to 9: CHRIS ANDREWS SESSION no. 1

SONG 1 ‘I Can’t Tell Her’
To start with, we’ve got a track called ‘I Can’t Tell Her’, a slow song. Now, for whatever reason, Chris elected not so sing that one and got Chris Jennings to sing that while playing the piano. I don’t know if it ever got used by anyone.

SONG 2 ‘Run’
The next song is ‘Run’ and is Chris singing. It got released as a single for Sandie Shaw. Quite a powerful track actually, maybe more powerful than Sandie’s released version - a bit like the ‘How Can You Tell’ from the Gremlins sessions:  ours was a typical beat group sound, whereas Sandie’s released version was a little bit tamer in a way.

[NOTE
Sandie Shaw: ‘Run’ c/w ‘Long Way Home’, both by Andrews, was released in the UK as Pye 7N 17163 on 26 August 1966]

SONG 3 ‘Money’
It is followed by ‘Money’ and I think there was only three of us playing on that:  Chris Andrews played rhythm guitar, I played bass and Graham on drums. I think everyone else in the studio was just clapping in the background.

SONG 4 ‘Had a Dream Last Night’
The next one is titled ‘Had a Dream Last Night’. Chris wrote that one for Sandie Shaw who’d been asked to do the 1967 Eurovision Song Contest. At the time, various song-writers were invited to submit a song and this was Chris’s contribution. Perhaps a little bit reggae-ish in its feel. It didn’t get through for the Eurovision, but was on a single by Sandie anyway.

[NOTE
‘Had a Dream Last Night’ was released in the UK on Sandie Shaw’s Pye EP ‘Tell the Boys’, cat.no. NEP 24281, May 1967. It was the B-side of Sandie Shaw’s single ‘Puppet on a String’ in Germany (April 1967, cat.no. HT300081) and The Netherlands (April 1967, Pye 7N 17272).  In the UK, ‘Puppet on a String’ was coupled with ‘Tell the Boys’, equally by Andrews].

SONGS 5 & 6 ‘There’s Something about You’ / ‘What More Can Anyone Do’
The next songs are Chris singing and all of us backing: ‘There’s Something about You’ – I gave it that title, because these words are prominent in the lyrics – and ‘What More Can Anyone Do’. I discovered much later the latter got released by Adam Faith.
[NOTE
Adam Faith: ‘What More Can Anyone Do’ c/w ‘You’ve Got a Way with Me’, both by Andrews, Parlophone, cat.no. R 5566, UK, 13 January 1967].

SONGS 7, 8 & 9 ‘I Don’t Think You Want Me Anymore’, ‘She’s Never Been Loved Before’, ‘Mr. Jones’
Next are ‘I Don’t Think You Want Me Anymore’, ‘She’s Never Been Loved Before’ and ‘Mr. Jones’, which is Chris singing and all of us backing. ‘Mr. Jones’ amused me, because on the sound desk was… Mr Jones (laughs). I guess it’s a coincidence, I don’t know where Chris got the inspiration from.

[NOTE
‘I Don’t Think You Want Me Anymore’ can be found on the LP ‘Golden Hour Presents Sandie Shaw’s Greatest Hits’, cat.no. GH 533, UK, 1972, and on the EP ‘Tell the Boys’, Pye PNV 24197, France, 1967].

SONGS 10 to 12: CHRIS ANDREWS SESSION no. 2

Chas de Lacy: the following are from another session with Chris.

SONG 10 ‘That’s Me’,
There’s a track with a girl singer who’s got a nice voice and which I put down as being called ‘That’s Me’, but as I explained that’s not necessarily the actual title. If I remember correctly, I got this feeling she was possibly a friend or girl-friend of The Roulettes’ roadie – that may not be correct, but that seems to have stuck in my mind. She wasn’t in the music business. How that came about, I’m not sure. Maybe Peter might have said to Chris: ‘You know, I’ve been asked to do a girl on a song’. I don’t know her name.

SONG 11 ‘Two Streets’
Next is ‘Two Streets’ and I know that was released by Val Doonican! I was surprised to hear it on the radio one day. And I thought ‘That’s interesting’, because you wouldn’t necessarily associate it with Val Doonican when you hear the way we played it. Val Doonican’s more of a crooner, but anyway...

[NOTE
Val Doonican: ‘Two Streets’ (Andrews) c/w ‘It Must Be You’ (Pavey, Doonican), Decca F.12608, UK, 1967].

SONG 12
Finally, there’s this song I’ve written down as ’Steps Have Been Taken’, the line in the song that is repeated.

Whether any of these songs were taken up by any artists in the world, I don’t know. And that’s it, all the songs on that cassette. The other noises you hear are just incidental.

As told to Eddy Bonte by Chas de Lacy, Wallington, England, 25 July 2022.

SIDE-STORIES
 

Side-story 1 The Fleur de Lys

 ‘Little’ Chris Andrews played lead guitar on the sessions for the second EP, but he wasn’t with us for very long. He had a friend and near neighbour who played lead guitar in a band called Fleur de Lys who had just released ‘Circles’. This friend was Phil Sawyer. I remember being very taken by their fantastic version of the Who-song ‘Circles’. I was at Chris’s place one day when he said ‘Come and meet a friend of mine’ and that was Phil Sawyer, so we were chatting and talking about this record and Phil had a Telecaster and he plugged it in and started playing. He was a fantastic player and you could hear all you can hear on ‘Circles’. The history of The Fleur de Lys is very varied and the personnel kept changing. Anyway, Little Chris joined them and they released a record called ‘Mud in Your Eye’ and I think he co-wrote that with Phil. Something else I remember about that record is that they borrowed my Danelectro bass for the A and B sides which had a particular sound. The Danelectro is the same instrument that John Entwistle used on ‘My Generation’, it had a very twangy sound. Sawyer then went on to replace Steve Winwood who’d left The Spencer Davis Group.

[NOTE
The Fleur de Lys: ‘Circles’ (Townsend) c/w ‘So, Come On’ (Sawyer, Smith), Immediate IM032, UK, 18 March 1966.
The Fleur de Lys: ‘Mud in Your Eye’ (Sawyer, Andrews) c/w ‘I’ve been Trying’ (Mayfield), Polydor 56124, UK, 4 November 1966].

As told to Eddy Bonte by Chas de Lacy, Wallington, England, 25 July 2022.

Side-story 2 The Zam Band

By the time we got on to the Chris Andrews sessions later in 1966, the line-up was Chris Jennings on vocals, Graham McCubbin on drums, Mike Gelardi on keyboards and piano, and myself on bass. As a band playing normal gigs, we actually happened to come across a singer of Indian descent, Joe Kirtiker. I think our manager / roadie Mark Goddard found him singing with another band and thought he was really good but his band wasn’t, and Mark thought if he came along with The Gremlins, he could add more variety to the sound. So, during that time we changed our name from The Gremlins to The Zam Band, which I guess was inspired by Geno Washington & His Ram Jam band, it was that kind of thing. What we would do at a gig, we as the original line-up would play the typical British beat group songs and Joe would come on and do some soul and Motown and that sort of thing, so it was a bit of variety. I don’t recall Joe ever being involved in any of the recordings we did after that with Chris Andrews. He may have been in the studio doing some backing vocals, but perhaps no more than that.

As told to Eddy Bonte by Chas de Lacy, Wallington, England, 25 July 2022.

Side-story 3 Meeting Chris Andrews and Peter Thorp

How come a young group with no real claim to fame at the time, came to play on those Chris Andrews sessions in late 1966, Andrews already having established himself as a successful song-writer (The Roulettes, Sandie Shaw, Adam Faith) and solo artist? And how come they also got to play with Peter Thorp, guitarist of The Roulettes who had backed Adam Faith before striking out on their own?

Chas de Lacy:
‘The Gremlins was a teenage group. I mean, when we did these first recordings in 1965, I was fifteen and the others were a couple of years older. We took on Martin Goddard as a sort of manager. We got to know Peter Thorp through Martin. I think he might have gone to school with Pete, he certainly knew him, they were the same age.
In March 1965, there was a beat group contest in the church hall of St. Mary’s in Merton, South London, near where we all lived. The hall was used as a youth club as well, and they had a proper stage. So, a few of the local bands were invited to come along. Each band did three songs. Peter was asked if he’d come along and be one of the judges and he said ‘OK, but I can also bring along another friend of mine, Chris Andrews’. So, Peter and Chris were part of a panel of judges. As it happens, The Gremlins won the contest! I can’t remember what we played actually, except for the Kinks song ‘Tired of Waiting’. After the show had finished, Peter and Chris came up on stage, Chris got on the piano and we did ‘Lucille’ and various things, we had a jam session. That was the first time we met up with both Peter and Chris and that started off a friendship’.

[NOTE
See also an article written in 2014 by Mark Goddard (The Gremlins’ manager) for the magazine of St. Mary's, Merton, whose hall was the venue for the 1965 Merton Beat Contest, which The Gremlins won: https://thegremlins.webs.com/history].

Side-story 4 Simon de Lacy and Rogan’s Heroes

After The Roulettes broke up the Autumn of 1967, guitarist and co-founder Peter Thorp tried his hand at song-writing. He placed a few songs with Southern Music and two of them were demoed in late 1967 at R.G. Jones’: ‘Baby Come Back to Me’ and ‘Goodbye Love’.

Chas de Lacy: ‘I guess we were invited to do the sessions at R.G. Jones’ because we’d been working together, we’d been to the earlier sessions with Chris the year before and he got to know us musically. It just kind of went on from there. He was still in The Roulettes but around that time they eventually packed up or disintegrated.

You’ll laugh at this, we did a couple of local gigs as a band with myself on guitar, Chris Jennings on vocals, Peter on drums (!) and Mod Rogan on bass. That was in the Wimbledon – Merton area, where most of us lived. Probably, Peter came up with the idea and we called ourselves ‘Rogan’s Heroes’ after the series Hogan’s heroes. Probably still ‘67, it was after The Roulettes, just general songs’. 

As told to Eddy Bonte by Chas de Lacy, Wallington, England, 25 July 2022.
Text and illustrations are © Eddy Bonte, unless specified otherwise

[Redactie: This file 23JAN23 + Chas’s feedback = EB2 as per 08fEB23 / FIrst publicaton on this site as per 27FEB2023]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris Andrews One side: That's Me (courtesy of Ann & James Thorp)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris Andrews  Other side: 1 Two Streeets / 2 Untitled  (courtesy of of Ann & James Thorp)

 

MORE INFORMATIO

 

THE GREMLINS
https://thegremlins.webs.com/history

CHRIS ANDREWS
https://chris-andrews.net/

CHAS DE LACY’s CURRENT BAND
https://www.facebook.com/theactualisers 

TIM ANDREWS
https://www.facebook.com/musictimchrisandrews

THE ROULETTES
https://www.eddybonte.be/just-good-music/pop/the-roulettes/

https://www.facebook.com/theRoulettesUK/

END OF FILE EDDY 08FB2023